Well Graham and I have been at it over this whole authority of source and teach truth to students for quite some time now. No one else seems brave enough to weigh into the discussion so I thought I would try and bring it back to something that may be of some use to folk. I guess I need to start by stating that this is not a debate of if religion should be taught in schools so we have some form of basis to teach students. I guess my point earlier was that it is very hard to teach students values and issues of source and truth without having some form of solid foundation. So I am planning on starting by responding to Grahams lastest comments and adding some link back to the challenges and issues of learning and teaching in the 21st century.
Graham Said: So the decision makers are the ones telling us what goes? Or is it majority rules? What about the minority beliefs and opinions? Is a secular education system impossible or undesirable? You imply that it is impossible but I think that it should be something desirable worth working towards.
I Say: Once again a debate revolving around definitions of terms. However, I guess we need to have an understanding of what a secular education system would consist of? Where do we base our values from in a secular system? What are our core values? For example… Is it wrong to steal music online? Further more what about a site like allofmp3.com where a group of Russian buissness folk have found a loop hole in current international law which allows them to sell music online for as little as $1 for an entire album. They have set it up in a way where they are obeying all laws but it is obvious that the recording artisit is missing out on their royalties due to a loop hole. So what would a secular system teach students on this issue? Is this right or wrong? What does secularism say to copying someone elses IP to make it sound like your own. For example what if I steal David Warlick’s or Graham Weagner’s thoughts from their blog and post them as my own on my blog? Most would say that is wrong, but I had a group of students last year that were doing blogging that did the exact same thing and didn’t see what the problem was by simply just copied someone else’s comment. Doesn’t secularism say that right and wrong is what we believe it to be? If so that really makes things difficult for a child.
Graham says: As generally, kids don’t live in an isolated world, they acquire values in many ways that aren’t necessarily explicitly taught to them. I teach values every day to my kids through my actions, the way I interact with others, the way I treat them. Everyone has values – whether you or I believe them to be worthwhile, that’s another thing! I gained values from my teachers (well, maybe one or two of them) or I saw values I did not like.
I say: This is very true and is an important area for teachers to have a firm understanding of. Students will learn values explicitly and implicitly from the teachers, parents, media, peers etc etc. My issue is the explicit teaching of values that needs to be looked at very carefully. Children need to be taught some level of explicit values that are very clear on issues that they will face in life. An example would be the values of other peoples work orIP and what we as responsible learners do with that information. I would say there needs to be particular values that are very clearly spelt out for students to understand. If we fail to do this we create an environment that says whatever you think is ok is fine, don’t worry about how that effects anyone else just consider the overall effect and benefits for yourself. Realise it or not I think we are seeing a generation of students who are thinking along these lines. Could this be due to the lack of focus on explicitly teaching particular values? Obviously an issue for parents as well as teachers.
Graham Says: One of the meanings for absolute is “not to be doubted or questioned” – your argument is that you need absolute truths as a building block for values, as a basis for your actions in life. I disagree – I think absolute truth is impossible, because something that is absolute has to hold true for everybody in existence. That starts to become part of the metaphor about seeing things in black or white, or in different shades of grey. Surely an absolute truth would be so blindingly obvious that it would be impossible to disagree with. I’m struggling to think of one – maybe murder, but then war would be wrong and the death penalty would be wrong – I suppose I’m trying to say there are so many exceptions to any truth that truth itself has a very slippery meaning.
I Say: If this statement were true (there is no absolute truth) , it would imply that it is an absolute truth itself. And if this statement is an absolute truth, it would contradict its original statement and mean that the statement is in fact false. Therefore it is impossible to prove that there are absolutely no absolute truths. Furthermore, this gives reason to my argument for the need for a solid foundation of values needing to be taught to students. Your own comments here are that it is too hard to give meaning and understanding to these ideas. How then do we expect children to learn to make decisions and have discernment? I guess you need to work out what your worldview is and then answer many of these questions. For example if you take some of your questions from my personal worldview then I would say Murder is wrong and therefore the death penalty is wrong – then you would say that what about war and murder within the Bible – well my worldview would say that God is a sovereign God and He has a plan and a purpose for all that He does and has done. Now you can argue that worldview as something that is wrong and doesn’t make sense to you but all judgments by me in that situation have come from a firm foundation of what I believe to be true. The concept of what is truth to students is something that they will develop over time and something that I think can be taught implicitly and explicitly.
Graham Says: I couldn’t agree more, but I don’t think that these values need to fit into a category of any kind – you are right, they have been shaped by my life experiences. They are my worldview. Everyone’s worldview is totally unique even if they choose to align themselves to a particular belief system or chosen lifestyle – but perception is not something that is created, to me, it is your own personal worldview.
Once again Graham probably a mix up in definitions of terms. I personally think that a worldview that says I have my own truth and way of understanding the world as well as lifestyle to live is in essence humanism. But probably no use getting caught up in definitions once again. I would say we need to have this conversation and schools need to set out what values need to be taught in schools. It concerns me that we would get so caught up in the political correctness carry on and forget about teaching such important life skills. At the end of the day values are going to be taught to our students – do we want that to be the values of the media or something else? Information is so freely available to our students that we need to make sure that they have a skill set available to them that allows them to critically analyse and make wise judgments.
Once again, I thank Graham for his openness in all of this…. It is a great discussion.
